Topics

New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs


John Holcomb II
 

https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvements-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter


Octavian Rasnita
 

Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger issues will never be solved.
 
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.
 
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon.
 
--Octavian

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs


Doug Lee
 

My scripts do, in fact, turn off the virtual PC cursor by default; you can turn it back on as you wish.

Not everyone prefers this approach for Electron apps, I find; and the stock FS scripts for Skype 8 do not do this.

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 07:49:06PM +0200, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger
issues will never be solved.



The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.

This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual
buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of
course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.



The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that
it will probably stop working soon.



--Octavian

----- Original Message -----

From: [1]John Holcomb II

To: [2]skypeenglish@groups.io

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM

Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 |
Skype Blogs

[3]https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvemen
ts-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twit
ter



References

1. mailto:@JHRadio
2. mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io
3. https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvements-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
4. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/message/3519
5. mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io?subject=Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
6. mailto:orasnita@...?subject=Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
7. https://groups.io/mt/28243551/409874
8. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/post
9. http://www.dlee.org/skype/
10. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/editsub/409874
11. mailto:skypeenglish+owner@groups.io
12. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/leave/defanged

--
Doug Lee dgl@... http://www.dlee.org
Level Access doug.lee@... http://www.LevelAccess.com
"It is difficult to produce a television documentary that is both
incisive and probing when every twelve minutes one is interrupted by
dancing rabbits singing about toilet paper." --Rod Serling


Lino Morales
 

I hope these changes I’m about to read will come to Skype for Windows 10 as well. They need some work. Its usable, but their certain things NVDA doesn’t read well. An aside here. Does anyone have problems with Skype 8 and JAWS 2019? With NVDA I’m able to use it like a web page with my arrow keys to move around, but not so much with JAWS and Narrator and this is with Doug’s electron scripts. Any thoughts?

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


From: skypeenglish@groups.io <skypeenglish@groups.io> on behalf of John Holcomb II <jhii926@...>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 12:29:28 PM
To: skypeenglish@groups.io
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
 

https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvements-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter


John Holcomb II
 

My 7 is still working, although I got 8 working ok enough on my windows 10 2006 laptop.

Ok enough for what I use it for.

 

 

From: skypeenglish@groups.io <skypeenglish@groups.io> On Behalf Of Octavian Rasnita
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 12:49 PM
To: skypeenglish@groups.io
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs

 

Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger issues will never be solved.

 

The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.

This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.

 

The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon.

 

--Octavian

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM

Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs

 

https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvements-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter


Sarah k Alawami
 

I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a lot faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just me.

On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger issues will never be solved.
 
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.
 
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon.
 
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs


Shaun Oliver
 

so do I, on both platforms, windows and mac. IOS and android, well, that's a whole other ballgame, but, it's certainly better than it ever was.


Octavien, if you put as much energy in to learning the new skype as you do complaining about it, you'd have nothing to complain about.


On 20/11/2018 05:54, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a lot faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just me.

On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger issues will never be solved.
 
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.
 
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon.
 
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs


Octavian Rasnita
 

Sounds good. Why are there people that don't prefer to do this? Are there any disadvantages?
I see as the single reason for not preferring this if some content is presented as text in the HTML document and if that text would be lost when reading with virtual cursor off. And yes, if Skype presents some text this way, it is a reason why I consider it bad. If it doesn't do that, it might be acceptable.


--Octavian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Lee" <dgl@...>
To: <skypeenglish@groups.io>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs


My scripts do, in fact, turn off the virtual PC cursor by default; you can turn it back on as you wish.

Not everyone prefers this approach for Electron apps, I find; and the stock FS scripts for Skype 8 do not do this.

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 07:49:06PM +0200, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger
issues will never be solved.



The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.

This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual
buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of
course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.



The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that
it will probably stop working soon.



--Octavian

----- Original Message -----

From: [1]John Holcomb II

To: [2]skypeenglish@groups.io

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM

Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 |
Skype Blogs

[3]https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvemen
ts-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twit
ter



References

1. mailto:@JHRadio
2. mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io
3. https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvements-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
4. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/message/3519
5. mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io?subject=Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
6. mailto:orasnita@...?subject=Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
7. https://groups.io/mt/28243551/409874
8. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/post
9. http://www.dlee.org/skype/
10. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/editsub/409874
11. mailto:skypeenglish+owner@groups.io
12. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/leave/defanged

--
Doug Lee dgl@... http://www.dlee.org
Level Access doug.lee@... http://www.LevelAccess.com
"It is difficult to produce a television documentary that is both
incisive and probing when every twelve minutes one is interrupted by
dancing rabbits singing about toilet paper." --Rod Serling


Octavian Rasnita
 


Yes, that's true. In some cases it might be faster to navigate in the web interface, but the problem I see is that the web interface is not standard, and anytime can appear something new in that interface, advertising, a link there, a button elsewhere, so we can't memorize that we need to press tab twice and then enter and then do this fast without waiting for screen reader to speak. I prefer the interfaces that never change depending on context. For sighted it is not a problem because they can see the entire window, they can see the context very fast.
 
--Octavian

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs

I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a lot faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just me.

On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger issues will never be solved.
 
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.
 
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon.
 
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs


Octavian Rasnita
 


"Octavien, if you put as much energy in to learning the new skype as you do complaining about it, you'd have nothing to complain about.".
 
I already told you that this is not true. I put a lot of efforts in learning to use Windows 7, and I use it every day in the last years, but I still consider it worse and less accessible than Windows XP.
After I will learn to use Skype 8 I will be able to use it very well, but that "very well" would still be worse than using Skype 7 for me.
 
Don't think that all the people use the applications the same way you use them.
 
--Octavian

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs

so do I, on both platforms, windows and mac. IOS and android, well, that's a whole other ballgame, but, it's certainly better than it ever was.


Octavien, if you put as much energy in to learning the new skype as you do complaining about it, you'd have nothing to complain about.


On 20/11/2018 05:54, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a lot faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just me.

On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger issues will never be solved.
 
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.
 
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon.
 
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs


Doug Lee
 

I can't answer that question with authority because I haven't asked anyone for details. My guess, though, is that some people prefer a virtual cursor initially because everything can be seen that way regardless of tab order.
Another possible incentive for this view is the whole-page Find feature, Ctrl+F or Ins+Ctrl+F... though I'm not sure how long that feature will survive because of Edge and an apparent trend away from granting screen readers
full and rapid access to all content at once. There are reasons for this issue, but they stray beyond the focus of this list.

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 11:03:48PM +0200, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Sounds good. Why are there people that don't prefer to do this? Are there
any disadvantages?
I see as the single reason for not preferring this if some content is
presented as text in the HTML document and if that text would be lost when
reading with virtual cursor off. And yes, if Skype presents some text this
way, it is a reason why I consider it bad. If it doesn't do that, it might
be acceptable.


--Octavian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Lee" <dgl@...>
To: <skypeenglish@groups.io>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 |
Skype Blogs


My scripts do, in fact, turn off the virtual PC cursor by default; you can
turn it back on as you wish.

Not everyone prefers this approach for Electron apps, I find; and the
stock FS scripts for Skype 8 do not do this.

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 07:49:06PM +0200, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger
issues will never be solved.



The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.

This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual
buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of
course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.



The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that
it will probably stop working soon.



--Octavian

----- Original Message -----

From: [1]John Holcomb II

To: [2]skypeenglish@groups.io

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM

Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 |
Skype Blogs

[3]https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvemen
ts-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twit
ter



References

1. mailto:@JHRadio
2. mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io
3.
https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvements-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
4. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/message/3519
5.
mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io?subject=Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
6.
mailto:orasnita@...?subject=Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
7. https://groups.io/mt/28243551/409874
8. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/post
9. http://www.dlee.org/skype/
10. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/editsub/409874
11. mailto:skypeenglish+owner@groups.io
12. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/leave/defanged

--
Doug Lee dgl@... http://www.dlee.org
Level Access doug.lee@...
http://www.LevelAccess.com
"It is difficult to produce a television documentary that is both
incisive and probing when every twelve minutes one is interrupted by
dancing rabbits singing about toilet paper." --Rod Serling





--
Doug Lee dgl@... http://www.dlee.org
Level Access doug.lee@... http://www.LevelAccess.com
"You must let me try, for a true soldier does not admit defeat before
the battle."
--Helen Keller (in a letter to the president of Radcliffe College)


Shaun Oliver
 

again, this is where your quick nav keys for web interaction come in to play. because you simply press e to enter your edit field, and you're there. then tap your space bar to go in to forms or brows mode, depending on your screenreader, then you can type away.

It really is not rocket science, and I'm really getting tired of you knit picking every single thing you can and finding every single reason you can to decry not only skype, but the tireless work both developers and end-users have done to get it where it is today. I'm sorry, but either put up, or shut up.


On 20/11/2018 07:38, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Yes, that's true. In some cases it might be faster to navigate in the web interface, but the problem I see is that the web interface is not standard, and anytime can appear something new in that interface, advertising, a link there, a button elsewhere, so we can't memorize that we need to press tab twice and then enter and then do this fast without waiting for screen reader to speak. I prefer the interfaces that never change depending on context. For sighted it is not a problem because they can see the entire window, they can see the context very fast.
 
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs

I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a lot faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just me.

On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger issues will never be solved.
 
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.
 
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon.
 
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs


Roy Nickelson
 

It is worth noting that the scripts from fS also turn off the birtual cursor.
Roy

On Nov 19, 2018, at 5:10 PM, Doug Lee <dgl@...> wrote:

I can't answer that question with authority because I haven't asked anyone for details. My guess, though, is that some people prefer a virtual cursor initially because everything can be seen that way regardless of tab order.
Another possible incentive for this view is the whole-page Find feature, Ctrl+F or Ins+Ctrl+F... though I'm not sure how long that feature will survive because of Edge and an apparent trend away from granting screen readers
full and rapid access to all content at once. There are reasons for this issue, but they stray beyond the focus of this list.

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 11:03:48PM +0200, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Sounds good. Why are there people that don't prefer to do this? Are there
any disadvantages?
I see as the single reason for not preferring this if some content is
presented as text in the HTML document and if that text would be lost when
reading with virtual cursor off. And yes, if Skype presents some text this
way, it is a reason why I consider it bad. If it doesn't do that, it might
be acceptable.


--Octavian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Lee" <dgl@...>
To: <skypeenglish@groups.io>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 |
Skype Blogs


My scripts do, in fact, turn off the virtual PC cursor by default; you can
turn it back on as you wish.

Not everyone prefers this approach for Electron apps, I find; and the
stock FS scripts for Skype 8 do not do this.

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 07:49:06PM +0200, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger
issues will never be solved.



The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.

This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual
buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of
course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.



The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that
it will probably stop working soon.



--Octavian

----- Original Message -----

From: [1]John Holcomb II

To: [2]skypeenglish@groups.io

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM

Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 |
Skype Blogs

[3]https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvemen
ts-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twit
ter



References

1. mailto:@JHRadio
2. mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io
3.
https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvements-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
4. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/message/3519
5.
mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io?subject=Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
6.
mailto:orasnita@...?subject=Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
7. https://groups.io/mt/28243551/409874
8. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/post
9. http://www.dlee.org/skype/
10. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/editsub/409874
11. mailto:skypeenglish+owner@groups.io
12. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/leave/defanged

--
Doug Lee dgl@... http://www.dlee.org
Level Access doug.lee@...
http://www.LevelAccess.com
"It is difficult to produce a television documentary that is both
incisive and probing when every twelve minutes one is interrupted by
dancing rabbits singing about toilet paper." --Rod Serling





--
Doug Lee dgl@... http://www.dlee.org
Level Access doug.lee@... http://www.LevelAccess.com
"You must let me try, for a true soldier does not admit defeat before
the battle."
--Helen Keller (in a letter to the president of Radcliffe College)



Shaun Oliver
 

that's not my point at all. in fact, you know what? forget it.

I'm done. Time and Time again, people have given you solutions and whatnot and other feedback to help you improve your efficiency with Skype, and you still complain that it is worse than what you had. build a bridge, get over it, The new Skype is here to stay, and no amount of belly aching on your part nor anybody else's will extend the life of Skype Classic. Microsoft have put it to bed, and rightly so. We, whether you like to admit it or not, are a minority, and we do not affect a major corperation's bottom line as much as we'd all wish we could, save for those to whom products are specifically designed and marketed towards us.

Whenever I see an email from you regarding Skype, it is a never ending litany of charges against it's ease of use, that it's worse than what you had, it's less accessible, it's less efficient, it's this, it's that, or it's the other.


That is why I say you should expend that energy you put in to thinking up and cmposing that litany of charges, in to learning Skype or whatever varients thereof, and actually be constructive and positive, instead of negative and disruptive.


We've heard every single complaint you've raised before, and reitterating them here, is not going to change what currently is. If you feel that strongly about it, contact the MS Disability Access Desk and kindly present them with your arguments.

*SMH*


On 20/11/2018 07:42, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

"Octavien, if you put as much energy in to learning the new skype as you do complaining about it, you'd have nothing to complain about.".
 
I already told you that this is not true. I put a lot of efforts in learning to use Windows 7, and I use it every day in the last years, but I still consider it worse and less accessible than Windows XP.
After I will learn to use Skype 8 I will be able to use it very well, but that "very well" would still be worse than using Skype 7 for me.
 
Don't think that all the people use the applications the same way you use them.
 
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs

so do I, on both platforms, windows and mac. IOS and android, well, that's a whole other ballgame, but, it's certainly better than it ever was.


Octavien, if you put as much energy in to learning the new skype as you do complaining about it, you'd have nothing to complain about.


On 20/11/2018 05:54, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a lot faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just me.

On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger issues will never be solved.
 
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.
 
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon.
 
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs


Shaun Oliver
 

that's not my point at all. in fact, you know what? forget it.

I'm done. Time and Time again, people have given you solutions and whatnot and other feedback to help you improve your efficiency with Skype, and you still complain that it is worse than what you had. build a bridge, get over it, The new Skype is here to stay, and no amount of belly aching on your part nor anybody else's will extend the life of Skype Classic. Microsoft have put it to bed, and rightly so. We, whether you like to admit it or not, are a minority, and we do not affect a major corperation's bottom line as much as we'd all wish we could, save for those to whom products are specifically designed and marketed towards us.

Whenever I see an email from you regarding Skype, it is a never ending litany of charges against it's ease of use, that it's worse than what you had, it's less accessible, it's less efficient, it's this, it's that, or it's the other.


That is why I say you should expend that energy you put in to thinking up and cmposing that litany of charges, in to learning Skype or whatever varients thereof, and actually be constructive and positive, instead of negative and disruptive.


We've heard every single complaint you've raised before, and reitterating them here, is not going to change what currently is. If you feel that strongly about it, contact the MS Disability Access Desk and kindly present them with your arguments.

*SMH*


On 20/11/2018 07:42, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

"Octavien, if you put as much energy in to learning the new skype as you do complaining about it, you'd have nothing to complain about.".
 
I already told you that this is not true. I put a lot of efforts in learning to use Windows 7, and I use it every day in the last years, but I still consider it worse and less accessible than Windows XP.
After I will learn to use Skype 8 I will be able to use it very well, but that "very well" would still be worse than using Skype 7 for me.
 
Don't think that all the people use the applications the same way you use them.
 
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs

so do I, on both platforms, windows and mac. IOS and android, well, that's a whole other ballgame, but, it's certainly better than it ever was.


Octavien, if you put as much energy in to learning the new skype as you do complaining about it, you'd have nothing to complain about.


On 20/11/2018 05:54, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a lot faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just me.

On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger issues will never be solved.
 
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.
 
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon.
 
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs


Sarah k Alawami
 

Well, the web interfaces for most apps now a days are the way app devs are doing it so in my humble opinion either change or get left behind. We are not stopping.

On 19 Nov 2018, at 13:08, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Yes, that's true. In some cases it might be faster to navigate in the web interface, but the problem I see is that the web interface is not standard, and anytime can appear something new in that interface, advertising, a link there, a button elsewhere, so we can't memorize that we need to press tab twice and then enter and then do this fast without waiting for screen reader to speak. I prefer the interfaces that never change depending on context. For sighted it is not a problem because they can see the entire window, they can see the context very fast.
 
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs

I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a lot faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just me.

On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger issues will never be solved.
 
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.
 
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon.
 
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs


Octavian Rasnita
 

Hi Doug,

OK, I understand.

"everything can be seen that way regardless of tab order".

This is exactly what I might want from some applications, and exactly what I don't want from an application like Skype.
I use to know what I want from Skype and I want to do it as fast as possible, without needing to review all content of its windows to see what they contain.

"whole-page Find feature".

It should be also helpful from an application that we need to explore each time, but at least for me, Skype is a very limited application that can help us do very few things: discuss verbally and text chat. In past it was also good for sending files. So I prefer it to remain a limited application that does very good what it does.

"apparent trend away from granting screen readers full and rapid access to all content at once".

Unfortunately this is much worse than the Skype problem, and it is an opposite problem, because it refers to web browsing, and yes, the web browsing is almost always an exploratory process where is helpful to see the whole content at once.

--Octavian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Lee" <dgl@...>
To: <skypeenglish@groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs


I can't answer that question with authority because I haven't asked anyone for details. My guess, though, is that some people prefer a virtual cursor initially because everything can be seen that way regardless of tab order.
Another possible incentive for this view is the whole-page Find feature, Ctrl+F or Ins+Ctrl+F... though I'm not sure how long that feature will survive because of Edge and an apparent trend away from granting screen readers
full and rapid access to all content at once. There are reasons for this issue, but they stray beyond the focus of this list.

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 11:03:48PM +0200, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Sounds good. Why are there people that don't prefer to do this? Are there
any disadvantages?
I see as the single reason for not preferring this if some content is
presented as text in the HTML document and if that text would be lost when
reading with virtual cursor off. And yes, if Skype presents some text this
way, it is a reason why I consider it bad. If it doesn't do that, it might
be acceptable.


--Octavian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Lee" <dgl@...>
To: <skypeenglish@groups.io>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 |
Skype Blogs


My scripts do, in fact, turn off the virtual PC cursor by default; you can
turn it back on as you wish.

Not everyone prefers this approach for Electron apps, I find; and the
stock FS scripts for Skype 8 do not do this.

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 07:49:06PM +0200, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger
issues will never be solved.



The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.

This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual
buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of
course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.



The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that
it will probably stop working soon.



--Octavian

----- Original Message -----

From: [1]John Holcomb II

To: [2]skypeenglish@groups.io

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM

Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 |
Skype Blogs

[3]https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvemen
ts-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twit
ter



References

1. mailto:@JHRadio
2. mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io
3.
https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvements-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
4. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/message/3519
5.
mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io?subject=Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
6.
mailto:orasnita@...?subject=Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
7. https://groups.io/mt/28243551/409874
8. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/post
9. http://www.dlee.org/skype/
10. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/editsub/409874
11. mailto:skypeenglish+owner@groups.io
12. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/leave/defanged

--
Doug Lee dgl@... http://www.dlee.org
Level Access doug.lee@...
http://www.LevelAccess.com
"It is difficult to produce a television documentary that is both
incisive and probing when every twelve minutes one is interrupted by
dancing rabbits singing about toilet paper." --Rod Serling





--
Doug Lee dgl@... http://www.dlee.org
Level Access doug.lee@... http://www.LevelAccess.com
"You must let me try, for a true soldier does not admit defeat before
the battle."
--Helen Keller (in a letter to the president of Radcliffe College)


Octavian Rasnita
 


Yes you are right. We are a minority and we will always be disadvantaged because of this. This is what I am saying. But this doesn't mean that we shouldn't say this just because we can't change it.
Nothing will be changed in our favour if we all would continue to pretend that it is all right when it is not all right for all of us.
 
--Octavian

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs

that's not my point at all. in fact, you know what? forget it.

I'm done. Time and Time again, people have given you solutions and whatnot and other feedback to help you improve your efficiency with Skype, and you still complain that it is worse than what you had. build a bridge, get over it, The new Skype is here to stay, and no amount of belly aching on your part nor anybody else's will extend the life of Skype Classic. Microsoft have put it to bed, and rightly so. We, whether you like to admit it or not, are a minority, and we do not affect a major corperation's bottom line as much as we'd all wish we could, save for those to whom products are specifically designed and marketed towards us.

Whenever I see an email from you regarding Skype, it is a never ending litany of charges against it's ease of use, that it's worse than what you had, it's less accessible, it's less efficient, it's this, it's that, or it's the other.


That is why I say you should expend that energy you put in to thinking up and cmposing that litany of charges, in to learning Skype or whatever varients thereof, and actually be constructive and positive, instead of negative and disruptive.


We've heard every single complaint you've raised before, and reitterating them here, is not going to change what currently is. If you feel that strongly about it, contact the MS Disability Access Desk and kindly present them with your arguments.

*SMH*


On 20/11/2018 07:42, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

"Octavien, if you put as much energy in to learning the new skype as you do complaining about it, you'd have nothing to complain about.".
 
I already told you that this is not true. I put a lot of efforts in learning to use Windows 7, and I use it every day in the last years, but I still consider it worse and less accessible than Windows XP.
After I will learn to use Skype 8 I will be able to use it very well, but that "very well" would still be worse than using Skype 7 for me.
 
Don't think that all the people use the applications the same way you use them.
 
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs

so do I, on both platforms, windows and mac. IOS and android, well, that's a whole other ballgame, but, it's certainly better than it ever was.


Octavien, if you put as much energy in to learning the new skype as you do complaining about it, you'd have nothing to complain about.


On 20/11/2018 05:54, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a lot faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just me.

On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger issues will never be solved.
 
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.
 
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon.
 
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs


Octavian Rasnita
 


Of course. But if we can't stop it it doesn't mean that we should pretend that it is better for us even if it is not.
The web interface is better for the sighted because is more flexible.
The web interface is worse for me exactly because it is flexible and it can appear surprises in it.
 
The sighted can see the whole screen at once, so even if it changed completely, they can see those changes in a fraction of a second so is not a problem for them.
The web interface can have easier added images, icons and other signs that make it much more intuitive for the sighted, while for us they are not useful at all.
 
In my humble opinion the accessibility for the blind decreases continuously in the last years. I don't measure it in absolute terms, because in absolute terms, probably it increased a little.
I measure it as the difference between the accessibility for the sighted and the accessibility for the blind. And the distance between these 2 things increased very much in latest years in both hardware and software.
 
A good and positive target would be if this distance would decrease as much as possible, not to accept that we are blind, that we are a minority and it is normal to be disadvantaged.
 
--Octavian

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs

Well, the web interfaces for most apps now a days are the way app devs are doing it so in my humble opinion either change or get left behind. We are not stopping.

On 19 Nov 2018, at 13:08, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Yes, that's true. In some cases it might be faster to navigate in the web interface, but the problem I see is that the web interface is not standard, and anytime can appear something new in that interface, advertising, a link there, a button elsewhere, so we can't memorize that we need to press tab twice and then enter and then do this fast without waiting for screen reader to speak. I prefer the interfaces that never change depending on context. For sighted it is not a problem because they can see the entire window, they can see the context very fast.
 
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs

I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a lot faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just me.

On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger issues will never be solved.
 
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.
 
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon.
 
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs


Octavian Rasnita
 


I'm also tired to explain you that not all the people have the same needs from the same applications, because it seems that it is hard for you to understand.
 
Pressing 2 keys instead of one takes 100% more effort and time, so yes, is not OK for everybody.
If something is not perfect, we should accept it as is, but we should also agree that is not perfect and don't pretend that it is perfect and we should tell only good things about it.
 
If you say that you are so tired, then I'd have a recommendation for you... instead of telling me to shut up, just because I don't have the same preferences as yours. Why don't you shut up instead if it is so hard for you to understand?
 
--Octavian

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 12:55 AM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs

again, this is where your quick nav keys for web interaction come in to play. because you simply press e to enter your edit field, and you're there. then tap your space bar to go in to forms or brows mode, depending on your screenreader, then you can type away.

It really is not rocket science, and I'm really getting tired of you knit picking every single thing you can and finding every single reason you can to decry not only skype, but the tireless work both developers and end-users have done to get it where it is today. I'm sorry, but either put up, or shut up.


On 20/11/2018 07:38, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Yes, that's true. In some cases it might be faster to navigate in the web interface, but the problem I see is that the web interface is not standard, and anytime can appear something new in that interface, advertising, a link there, a button elsewhere, so we can't memorize that we need to press tab twice and then enter and then do this fast without waiting for screen reader to speak. I prefer the interfaces that never change depending on context. For sighted it is not a problem because they can see the entire window, they can see the context very fast.
 
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs

I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a lot faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just me.

On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger issues will never be solved.
 
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.
 
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon.
 
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs