|
https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvements-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
|
|
|
Any improvement is good, but these are small
improvements while bigger issues will never be solved.
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web
interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts
will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor,
and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still
works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon.
--Octavian
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29
PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility
improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
|
|
|
My scripts do, in fact, turn off the virtual PC cursor by default; you can turn it back on as you wish.
Not everyone prefers this approach for Electron apps, I find; and the stock FS scripts for Skype 8 do not do this.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
|
|
|
Lino Morales <linomorales001@...>
I hope these changes I’m about to read will come to Skype for Windows 10 as well. They need some work. Its usable, but their certain things NVDA doesn’t read well. An aside here. Does anyone have problems with Skype 8 and JAWS 2019? With
NVDA I’m able to use it like a web page with my arrow keys to move around, but not so much with JAWS and Narrator and this is with Doug’s electron scripts. Any thoughts?
Sent from
Mail for Windows 10
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
From: skypeenglish@groups.io <skypeenglish@groups.io> on behalf of John Holcomb II <jhii926@...>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 12:29:28 PM
To: skypeenglish@groups.io
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvements-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
|
|
|
My 7 is still working, although I got 8 working ok enough on my windows 10 2006 laptop. Ok enough for what I use it for.
From: skypeenglish@groups.io <skypeenglish@groups.io> On Behalf Of Octavian Rasnita Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 12:49 PM To: skypeenglish@groups.io Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger issues will never be solved. The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface. This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way. The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvements-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
|
|
|
Sarah k Alawami
I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a lot faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just me.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is good, but these are small
improvements while bigger issues will never be solved.
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web
interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts
will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor,
and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still
works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29
PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility
improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
|
|
|
so do I, on both platforms, windows and mac. IOS and android,
well, that's a whole other ballgame, but, it's certainly better
than it ever was.
Octavien, if you put as much energy in to learning the new skype
as you do complaining about it, you'd have nothing to complain
about.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 20/11/2018 05:54, Sarah k Alawami
wrote:
I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find
myself navigating a lot faster in the web interface than the
older interface but thats just me.
On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is good,
but these are small improvements while bigger issues
will never be solved.
The biggest issue: Skype
8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be
worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual
buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC
cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully
accessible this way.
The best news is that for
the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that it will
probably stop working soon.
--Octavian
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Monday,
November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject:
[skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype
8.0 | Skype Blogs
|
|
|
Sounds good. Why are there people that don't prefer to do this? Are there any disadvantages?
I see as the single reason for not preferring this if some content is presented as text in the HTML document and if that text would be lost when reading with virtual cursor off. And yes, if Skype presents some text this way, it is a reason why I consider it bad. If it doesn't do that, it might be acceptable.
--Octavian
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lee" <dgl@dlee.org> To: <skypeenglish@groups.io> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:00 PM Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs My scripts do, in fact, turn off the virtual PC cursor by default; you can turn it back on as you wish.
Not everyone prefers this approach for Electron apps, I find; and the stock FS scripts for Skype 8 do not do this.
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 07:49:06PM +0200, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger
issues will never be solved.
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual
buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of
course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that
it will probably stop working soon.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: [1]John Holcomb II
To: [2]skypeenglish@groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 |
Skype Blogs
[3]https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvemen
ts-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twit
ter
References
1. mailto:jhii926@gmail.com
2. mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io
3. https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvements-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
4. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/message/3519
5. mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io?subject=Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
6. mailto:orasnita@gmail.com?subject=Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
7. https://groups.io/mt/28243551/409874
8. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/post
9. http://www.dlee.org/skype/
10. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/editsub/409874
11. mailto:skypeenglish+owner@groups.io
12. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/leave/defanged
--
Doug Lee dgl@dlee.org http://www.dlee.org
Level Access doug.lee@LevelAccess.com http://www.LevelAccess.com
"It is difficult to produce a television documentary that is both
incisive and probing when every twelve minutes one is interrupted by
dancing rabbits singing about toilet paper." --Rod Serling
|
|
|
Yes, that's true. In some cases it might be faster
to navigate in the web interface, but the problem I see is that the web
interface is not standard, and anytime can appear something new in that
interface, advertising, a link there, a button elsewhere, so we can't memorize
that we need to press tab twice and then enter and then do this fast without
waiting for screen reader to speak. I prefer the interfaces that never change
depending on context. For sighted it is not a problem because they can see the
entire window, they can see the context very fast.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 9:24
PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New
accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a lot
faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just me.
On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is good, but these are small
improvements while bigger issues will never be solved.
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web
interface.
This issue might be worked around if the
scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only
the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible
this way.
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7
still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29
PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New
accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
|
|
|
"Octavien, if you put as much energy
in to learning the new skype as you do complaining about it, you'd have nothing
to complain about.".
I already told you that this is not true. I put a lot of
efforts in learning to use Windows 7, and I use it every day in the last years,
but I still consider it worse and less accessible than Windows XP.
After I will learn to use Skype 8 I will be able to use it
very well, but that "very well" would still be worse than using Skype 7 for
me.
Don't think that all the people use the applications the
same way you use them.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 10:34
PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New
accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
so do I, on both platforms, windows and mac. IOS and android, well, that's
a whole other ballgame, but, it's certainly better than it ever was.
Octavien, if you put as much energy in to learning the new skype as you do
complaining about it, you'd have nothing to complain about.
On 20/11/2018 05:54, Sarah k Alawami
wrote:
I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a lot
faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just me.
On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is good, but these are small
improvements while bigger issues will never be solved.
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web
interface.
This issue might be worked around if the
scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only
the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible
this way.
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7
still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018
7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New
accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
|
|
|
I can't answer that question with authority because I haven't asked anyone for details. My guess, though, is that some people prefer a virtual cursor initially because everything can be seen that way regardless of tab order.
Another possible incentive for this view is the whole-page Find feature, Ctrl+F or Ins+Ctrl+F... though I'm not sure how long that feature will survive because of Edge and an apparent trend away from granting screen readers
full and rapid access to all content at once. There are reasons for this issue, but they stray beyond the focus of this list.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 11:03:48PM +0200, Octavian Rasnita wrote: Sounds good. Why are there people that don't prefer to do this? Are there any disadvantages? I see as the single reason for not preferring this if some content is presented as text in the HTML document and if that text would be lost when reading with virtual cursor off. And yes, if Skype presents some text this way, it is a reason why I consider it bad. If it doesn't do that, it might be acceptable. --Octavian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lee" <dgl@dlee.org> To: <skypeenglish@groups.io> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:00 PM Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs My scripts do, in fact, turn off the virtual PC cursor by default; you can
turn it back on as you wish.
Not everyone prefers this approach for Electron apps, I find; and the
stock FS scripts for Skype 8 do not do this.
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 07:49:06PM +0200, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger
issues will never be solved.
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual
buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of
course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that
it will probably stop working soon.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: [1]John Holcomb II
To: [2]skypeenglish@groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 |
Skype Blogs
[3]https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvemen
ts-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twit
ter
References
1. mailto:jhii926@gmail.com
2. mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io
3.
https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvements-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
4. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/message/3519
5.
mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io?subject=Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
6.
mailto:orasnita@gmail.com?subject=Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
7. https://groups.io/mt/28243551/409874
8. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/post
9. http://www.dlee.org/skype/
10. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/editsub/409874
11. mailto:skypeenglish+owner@groups.io
12. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/leave/defanged
--
Doug Lee dgl@dlee.org http://www.dlee.org
Level Access doug.lee@LevelAccess.com
http://www.LevelAccess.com
"It is difficult to produce a television documentary that is both
incisive and probing when every twelve minutes one is interrupted by
dancing rabbits singing about toilet paper." --Rod Serling
-- Doug Lee dgl@dlee.org http://www.dlee.orgLevel Access doug.lee@LevelAccess.com http://www.LevelAccess.com"You must let me try, for a true soldier does not admit defeat before the battle." --Helen Keller (in a letter to the president of Radcliffe College)
|
|
|
again, this is where your quick nav keys for web interaction come
in to play. because you simply press e to enter your edit field,
and you're there. then tap your space bar to go in to forms or
brows mode, depending on your screenreader, then you can type
away.
It really is not rocket science, and I'm really getting tired of
you knit picking every single thing you can and finding every
single reason you can to decry not only skype, but the tireless
work both developers and end-users have done to get it where it is
today. I'm sorry, but either put up, or shut up.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 20/11/2018 07:38, Octavian Rasnita
wrote:
Yes, that's true. In some cases
it might be faster to navigate in the web interface, but the
problem I see is that the web interface is not standard, and
anytime can appear something new in that interface,
advertising, a link there, a button elsewhere, so we can't
memorize that we need to press tab twice and then enter and
then do this fast without waiting for screen reader to speak.
I prefer the interfaces that never change depending on
context. For sighted it is not a problem because they can see
the entire window, they can see the context very fast.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19,
2018 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish]
New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself
navigating a lot faster in the web interface than the
older interface but thats just me.
On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is
good, but these are small improvements while bigger
issues will never be solved.
The biggest issue:
Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be
worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual
buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC
cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be
fully accessible this way.
The best news is that
for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that it
will probably stop working soon.
--Octavian
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Monday,
November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject:
[skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in
Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
|
|
|
It is worth noting that the scripts from fS also turn off the birtual cursor.
Roy
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Nov 19, 2018, at 5:10 PM, Doug Lee <dgl@dlee.org> wrote:
I can't answer that question with authority because I haven't asked anyone for details. My guess, though, is that some people prefer a virtual cursor initially because everything can be seen that way regardless of tab order.
Another possible incentive for this view is the whole-page Find feature, Ctrl+F or Ins+Ctrl+F... though I'm not sure how long that feature will survive because of Edge and an apparent trend away from granting screen readers
full and rapid access to all content at once. There are reasons for this issue, but they stray beyond the focus of this list.
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 11:03:48PM +0200, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Sounds good. Why are there people that don't prefer to do this? Are there
any disadvantages?
I see as the single reason for not preferring this if some content is
presented as text in the HTML document and if that text would be lost when
reading with virtual cursor off. And yes, if Skype presents some text this
way, it is a reason why I consider it bad. If it doesn't do that, it might
be acceptable.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Lee" <dgl@dlee.org>
To: <skypeenglish@groups.io>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 |
Skype Blogs
My scripts do, in fact, turn off the virtual PC cursor by default; you can
turn it back on as you wish.
Not everyone prefers this approach for Electron apps, I find; and the
stock FS scripts for Skype 8 do not do this.
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 07:49:06PM +0200, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger
issues will never be solved.
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual
buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of
course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that
it will probably stop working soon.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: [1]John Holcomb II
To: [2]skypeenglish@groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 |
Skype Blogs
[3]https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvemen
ts-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twit
ter
References
1. mailto:jhii926@gmail.com
2. mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io
3.
https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvements-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
4. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/message/3519
5.
mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io?subject=Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
6.
mailto:orasnita@gmail.com?subject=Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
7. https://groups.io/mt/28243551/409874
8. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/post
9. http://www.dlee.org/skype/
10. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/editsub/409874
11. mailto:skypeenglish+owner@groups.io
12. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/leave/defanged
--
Doug Lee dgl@dlee.org http://www.dlee.org
Level Access doug.lee@LevelAccess.com
http://www.LevelAccess.com
"It is difficult to produce a television documentary that is both
incisive and probing when every twelve minutes one is interrupted by
dancing rabbits singing about toilet paper." --Rod Serling
--
Doug Lee dgl@dlee.org http://www.dlee.org
Level Access doug.lee@LevelAccess.com http://www.LevelAccess.com
"You must let me try, for a true soldier does not admit defeat before
the battle."
--Helen Keller (in a letter to the president of Radcliffe College)
|
|
|
that's not my point at all. in fact, you know what? forget it.
I'm done. Time and Time again, people have given you solutions
and whatnot and other feedback to help you improve your efficiency
with Skype, and you still complain that it is worse than what you
had. build a bridge, get over it, The new Skype is here to stay,
and no amount of belly aching on your part nor anybody else's will
extend the life of Skype Classic. Microsoft have put it to bed,
and rightly so. We, whether you like to admit it or not, are a
minority, and we do not affect a major corperation's bottom line
as much as we'd all wish we could, save for those to whom products
are specifically designed and marketed towards us.
Whenever I see an email from you regarding Skype, it is a never
ending litany of charges against it's ease of use, that it's worse
than what you had, it's less accessible, it's less efficient, it's
this, it's that, or it's the other.
That is why I say you should expend that energy you put in to
thinking up and cmposing that litany of charges, in to learning
Skype or whatever varients thereof, and actually be constructive
and positive, instead of negative and disruptive.
We've heard every single complaint you've raised before, and
reitterating them here, is not going to change what currently is.
If you feel that strongly about it, contact the MS Disability
Access Desk and kindly present them with your arguments.
*SMH*
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 20/11/2018 07:42, Octavian Rasnita
wrote:
"Octavien, if you
put as much energy in to learning the new skype as you do
complaining about it, you'd have nothing to complain
about.".
I already told you that this is not true.
I put a lot of efforts in learning to use Windows 7, and I use
it every day in the last years, but I still consider it worse
and less accessible than Windows XP.
After I will learn to use Skype 8 I will
be able to use it very well, but that "very well" would still
be worse than using Skype 7 for me.
Don't think that all the people use the
applications the same way you use them.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19,
2018 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish]
New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
so do I, on both platforms, windows and mac. IOS and android,
well, that's a whole other ballgame, but, it's certainly
better than it ever was.
Octavien, if you put as much energy in to learning the new
skype as you do complaining about it, you'd have nothing to
complain about.
On 20/11/2018 05:54, Sarah k
Alawami wrote:
I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself
navigating a lot faster in the web interface than the
older interface but thats just me.
On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is
good, but these are small improvements while
bigger issues will never be solved.
The biggest issue:
Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be
worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual
buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC
cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be
fully accessible this way.
The best news is that
for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that
it will probably stop working soon.
--Octavian
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Monday,
November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject:
[skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in
Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
|
|
|
that's not my point at all. in fact, you know what? forget it.
I'm done. Time and Time again, people have given you solutions
and whatnot and other feedback to help you improve your efficiency
with Skype, and you still complain that it is worse than what you
had. build a bridge, get over it, The new Skype is here to stay,
and no amount of belly aching on your part nor anybody else's will
extend the life of Skype Classic. Microsoft have put it to bed,
and rightly so. We, whether you like to admit it or not, are a
minority, and we do not affect a major corperation's bottom line
as much as we'd all wish we could, save for those to whom products
are specifically designed and marketed towards us.
Whenever I see an email from you regarding Skype, it is a never
ending litany of charges against it's ease of use, that it's worse
than what you had, it's less accessible, it's less efficient, it's
this, it's that, or it's the other.
That is why I say you should expend that energy you put in to
thinking up and cmposing that litany of charges, in to learning
Skype or whatever varients thereof, and actually be constructive
and positive, instead of negative and disruptive.
We've heard every single complaint you've raised before, and
reitterating them here, is not going to change what currently is.
If you feel that strongly about it, contact the MS Disability
Access Desk and kindly present them with your arguments.
*SMH*
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 20/11/2018 07:42, Octavian Rasnita
wrote:
"Octavien, if you
put as much energy in to learning the new skype as you do
complaining about it, you'd have nothing to complain
about.".
I already told you that this is not true.
I put a lot of efforts in learning to use Windows 7, and I use
it every day in the last years, but I still consider it worse
and less accessible than Windows XP.
After I will learn to use Skype 8 I will
be able to use it very well, but that "very well" would still
be worse than using Skype 7 for me.
Don't think that all the people use the
applications the same way you use them.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19,
2018 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish]
New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
so do I, on both platforms, windows and mac. IOS and android,
well, that's a whole other ballgame, but, it's certainly
better than it ever was.
Octavien, if you put as much energy in to learning the new
skype as you do complaining about it, you'd have nothing to
complain about.
On 20/11/2018 05:54, Sarah k
Alawami wrote:
I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself
navigating a lot faster in the web interface than the
older interface but thats just me.
On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is
good, but these are small improvements while
bigger issues will never be solved.
The biggest issue:
Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be
worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual
buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC
cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be
fully accessible this way.
The best news is that
for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that
it will probably stop working soon.
--Octavian
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Monday,
November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject:
[skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in
Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
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Sarah k Alawami
Well, the web interfaces for most apps now a days are the way app devs are doing it so in my humble opinion either change or get left behind. We are not stopping.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 19 Nov 2018, at 13:08, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Yes, that's true. In some cases it might be faster
to navigate in the web interface, but the problem I see is that the web
interface is not standard, and anytime can appear something new in that
interface, advertising, a link there, a button elsewhere, so we can't memorize
that we need to press tab twice and then enter and then do this fast without
waiting for screen reader to speak. I prefer the interfaces that never change
depending on context. For sighted it is not a problem because they can see the
entire window, they can see the context very fast.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 9:24
PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New
accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a lot
faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just me.
On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is good, but these are small
improvements while bigger issues will never be solved.
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web
interface.
This issue might be worked around if the
scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use only
the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible
this way.
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7
still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working soon.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29
PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New
accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
|
|
|
Hi Doug,
OK, I understand.
"everything can be seen that way regardless of tab order".
This is exactly what I might want from some applications, and exactly what I don't want from an application like Skype.
I use to know what I want from Skype and I want to do it as fast as possible, without needing to review all content of its windows to see what they contain.
"whole-page Find feature".
It should be also helpful from an application that we need to explore each time, but at least for me, Skype is a very limited application that can help us do very few things: discuss verbally and text chat. In past it was also good for sending files. So I prefer it to remain a limited application that does very good what it does.
"apparent trend away from granting screen readers full and rapid access to all content at once".
Unfortunately this is much worse than the Skype problem, and it is an opposite problem, because it refers to web browsing, and yes, the web browsing is almost always an exploratory process where is helpful to see the whole content at once.
--Octavian
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lee" <dgl@dlee.org> To: <skypeenglish@groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 12:10 AM Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs I can't answer that question with authority because I haven't asked anyone for details. My guess, though, is that some people prefer a virtual cursor initially because everything can be seen that way regardless of tab order.
Another possible incentive for this view is the whole-page Find feature, Ctrl+F or Ins+Ctrl+F... though I'm not sure how long that feature will survive because of Edge and an apparent trend away from granting screen readers
full and rapid access to all content at once. There are reasons for this issue, but they stray beyond the focus of this list.
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 11:03:48PM +0200, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Sounds good. Why are there people that don't prefer to do this? Are there
any disadvantages?
I see as the single reason for not preferring this if some content is
presented as text in the HTML document and if that text would be lost when
reading with virtual cursor off. And yes, if Skype presents some text this
way, it is a reason why I consider it bad. If it doesn't do that, it might
be acceptable.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Lee" <dgl@dlee.org>
To: <skypeenglish@groups.io>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 |
Skype Blogs
My scripts do, in fact, turn off the virtual PC cursor by default; you can
turn it back on as you wish.
Not everyone prefers this approach for Electron apps, I find; and the
stock FS scripts for Skype 8 do not do this.
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 07:49:06PM +0200, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger
issues will never be solved.
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual
buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of
course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.
The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that
it will probably stop working soon.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: [1]John Holcomb II
To: [2]skypeenglish@groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 |
Skype Blogs
[3]https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvemen
ts-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twit
ter
References
1. mailto:jhii926@gmail.com
2. mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io
3.
https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvements-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
4. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/message/3519
5.
mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io?subject=Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
6.
mailto:orasnita@gmail.com?subject=Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
7. https://groups.io/mt/28243551/409874
8. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/post
9. http://www.dlee.org/skype/
10. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/editsub/409874
11. mailto:skypeenglish+owner@groups.io
12. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/leave/defanged
--
Doug Lee dgl@dlee.org http://www.dlee.org
Level Access doug.lee@LevelAccess.com
http://www.LevelAccess.com
"It is difficult to produce a television documentary that is both
incisive and probing when every twelve minutes one is interrupted by
dancing rabbits singing about toilet paper." --Rod Serling
--
Doug Lee dgl@dlee.org http://www.dlee.org
Level Access doug.lee@LevelAccess.com http://www.LevelAccess.com
"You must let me try, for a true soldier does not admit defeat before
the battle."
--Helen Keller (in a letter to the president of Radcliffe College)
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Yes you are right. We are a minority and we will
always be disadvantaged because of this. This is what I am saying. But this
doesn't mean that we shouldn't say this just because we can't change
it.
Nothing will be changed in our favour if we all
would continue to pretend that it is all right when it is not all right for all
of us.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 1:07
AM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New
accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
that's not my point at all. in fact, you know what? forget it.
I'm done. Time and Time again, people have given you solutions and whatnot
and other feedback to help you improve your efficiency with Skype, and you
still complain that it is worse than what you had. build a bridge, get over
it, The new Skype is here to stay, and no amount of belly aching on your part
nor anybody else's will extend the life of Skype Classic. Microsoft have put
it to bed, and rightly so. We, whether you like to admit it or not, are a
minority, and we do not affect a major corperation's bottom line as much as
we'd all wish we could, save for those to whom products are specifically
designed and marketed towards us.
Whenever I see an email from you regarding Skype, it is a never ending
litany of charges against it's ease of use, that it's worse than what you had,
it's less accessible, it's less efficient, it's this, it's that, or it's the
other.
That is why I say you should expend that energy you put in to thinking up
and cmposing that litany of charges, in to learning Skype or whatever varients
thereof, and actually be constructive and positive, instead of negative and
disruptive.
We've heard every single complaint you've raised before, and reitterating
them here, is not going to change what currently is. If you feel that strongly
about it, contact the MS Disability Access Desk and kindly present them with
your arguments.
*SMH*
On 20/11/2018 07:42, Octavian Rasnita
wrote:
"Octavien, if you put as much
energy in to learning the new skype as you do complaining about it, you'd
have nothing to complain about.".
I already told you that this is not true. I put a lot
of efforts in learning to use Windows 7, and I use it every day in the last
years, but I still consider it worse and less accessible than Windows
XP.
After I will learn to use Skype 8 I will be able to
use it very well, but that "very well" would still be worse than using Skype
7 for me.
Don't think that all the people use the applications
the same way you use them.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 10:34
PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New
accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
so do I, on both platforms, windows and mac. IOS and android, well,
that's a whole other ballgame, but, it's certainly better than it ever
was.
Octavien, if you put as much energy in to learning the new skype as you
do complaining about it, you'd have nothing to complain about.
On 20/11/2018 05:54, Sarah k Alawami
wrote:
I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a
lot faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just
me.
On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is good, but these are
small improvements while bigger issues will never be
solved.
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web
interface.
This issue might be worked around if the
scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use
only the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully
accessible this way.
The best news is that for the moment
Skype 7 still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working
soon.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018
7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New
accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
|
|
|
Of course. But if we can't stop it it doesn't mean
that we should pretend that it is better for us even if it is not.
The web interface is better for the sighted because
is more flexible.
The web interface is worse for me exactly because
it is flexible and it can appear surprises in it.
The sighted can see the whole screen at once, so
even if it changed completely, they can see those changes in a fraction of a
second so is not a problem for them.
The web interface can have easier added images,
icons and other signs that make it much more intuitive for the sighted, while
for us they are not useful at all.
In my humble opinion the accessibility for the
blind decreases continuously in the last years. I don't measure it in absolute
terms, because in absolute terms, probably it increased a little.
I measure it as the difference between the
accessibility for the sighted and the accessibility for the blind. And the
distance between these 2 things increased very much in latest years in both
hardware and software.
A good and positive target would be if this
distance would decrease as much as possible, not to accept that we are blind,
that we are a minority and it is normal to be disadvantaged.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 5:39
AM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New
accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
Well, the web interfaces for most apps now a days are the way app devs are
doing it so in my humble opinion either change or get left behind. We are not
stopping.
On 19 Nov 2018, at 13:08, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Yes, that's true. In some cases it might be
faster to navigate in the web interface, but the problem I see is that the
web interface is not standard, and anytime can appear something new in that
interface, advertising, a link there, a button elsewhere, so we can't
memorize that we need to press tab twice and then enter and then do this
fast without waiting for screen reader to speak. I prefer the interfaces
that never change depending on context. For sighted it is not a problem
because they can see the entire window, they can see the context very
fast.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 9:24
PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New
accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a lot
faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just
me.
On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is good, but these are
small improvements while bigger issues will never be
solved.
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web
interface.
This issue might be worked around if the
scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use
only the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully
accessible this way.
The best news is that for the moment Skype
7 still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working
soon.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018
7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New
accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
|
|
|
I'm also tired to explain you that not all the
people have the same needs from the same applications, because it seems that it
is hard for you to understand.
Pressing 2 keys instead of one takes 100% more
effort and time, so yes, is not OK for everybody.
If something is not perfect, we should accept it as
is, but we should also agree that is not perfect and don't pretend that it is
perfect and we should tell only good things about it.
If you say that you are so tired, then I'd have a
recommendation for you... instead of telling me to shut up, just because I don't
have the same preferences as yours. Why don't you shut up instead if it is so
hard for you to understand?
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 12:55
AM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New
accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
again, this is where your quick nav keys for web interaction come in to
play. because you simply press e to enter your edit field, and you're there.
then tap your space bar to go in to forms or brows mode, depending on your
screenreader, then you can type away.
It really is not rocket science, and I'm really getting tired of you knit
picking every single thing you can and finding every single reason you can to
decry not only skype, but the tireless work both developers and end-users have
done to get it where it is today. I'm sorry, but either put up, or shut
up.
On 20/11/2018 07:38, Octavian Rasnita
wrote:
Yes, that's true. In some cases it might be
faster to navigate in the web interface, but the problem I see is that the
web interface is not standard, and anytime can appear something new in that
interface, advertising, a link there, a button elsewhere, so we can't
memorize that we need to press tab twice and then enter and then do this
fast without waiting for screen reader to speak. I prefer the interfaces
that never change depending on context. For sighted it is not a problem
because they can see the entire window, they can see the context very
fast.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 9:24
PM
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New
accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a lot
faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just
me.
On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Any improvement is good, but these are
small improvements while bigger issues will never be
solved.
The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web
interface.
This issue might be worked around if the
scripts will turn the virtual buffer off automaticly and it will use
only the PC cursor, and of course, if this way Skype will be fully
accessible this way.
The best news is that for the moment Skype
7 still works. Too bad that it will probably stop working
soon.
--Octavian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018
7:29 PM
Subject: [skypeenglish] New
accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs
|
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|
