Of Fire and Functionality (was Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 | Skype Blogs)

Doug Lee

In my long-considered opinion, Octavian, Sarah has been quite patient with you of late.

You act like we condemn you for disagreement. No. We are tired of repetition. Beyond that, we believe in translating discomfort, such as difficulty with a new interface, into potentially productive action. I script, and I
report problems via Skype feedback forms. Those actions stand a chance to improve our lot with Skype 8. Your opinion expressions on this list do not, because no one here is able to alter Skype 8 itself and I have already
addressed the issues in Skype 8 that I saw.

You obviously feel strongly that Skype 8 is problematic. Fine. But as long as your reaction consists of nothing but list messages here repeating the same thoughts, you will not gain much respect.

And about that, if our mod will pardon me for this...

When a theater catches fire, which of these will gain the most respect, which will get the most usefully done, and which of us here is parallel to which in this story?
- The first movie goer to spot the flames and shout "FIRE!"
- Another movie goer who says very little but quickly starts directing traffic toward the exit.
- The by-standing construction worker who mumbles, "That place wasn't built very well," then walks on by.
- The second bystander who hears him and yells, "By all that is good, built it right next time!" and walks on by.
- The third bystander, another construction worker, who mutters disgustedly, "Modern building codes are not good enough anymore!" but also joins a committee to update building codes.
- The fireman who, perhaps after pausing for 2.5 seconds to stare incredulously at all the others, flies into the building and puts out the fire just before it manages to block the exit.

My answers, for anyone who wants to know...

Who will gain the most respect? Probably the fireman, for resolving the immediate problem. But not all of us are fireman; so we are lucky one was on hand.

Which will get the most usefully done? Potentially the second construction worker, as no other effort is being made to make buildings safer in the future. She will probably not be widely respected because nobody will notice what
she's doing. The bystanders probably muttered back at her, as she marched off with a determined air, "Oh look at her, shaking her fist at the mamoth!" But determination can make mammoths listen sometimes.

Which of us is which in this story? I submit this as my list:
- I am the fireman, for making things work immediately with scripts. But not all of us are fireman...
- Any of us, such as Michele, who are dilligent at announcing Skype-related changes here are one of the two movie goers. Of these, the ones who just gripe about things are more like the first, for spreading more panic than
remedy; and those who work to inform us more than alarm us are like the second.
- I'm afraid you, Octavian, currently look much like one of the first two bystanders to me: You comment and/or yell about the problems you see, yet willfully do nothing to address them. Not everyone is a fireman (or a scripter), but many
of us can direct our complaints where they might make a difference.
- Those who file Microsoft feedback are like the third bystander who goes to join a committee. It may not seem like much, and it may initially look pointless; but that one is channeling energy where it can matter.

On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 09:11:32PM +0200, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
Sarah, I asked you some time ago, but I haven't got any answer from

Do you accept only positive remarks about Skype on this list?

Do you like only the remarks that are the same as yours?

You say that "we are starting to not like it". Can you please tell me
who are those "we"?

Were there votes made among all members of the list and you observed
that all list members don't like my messages?

And btw, is there a rule of this list that tells that if a certain
number of members don't like the opinions of other list members, those
other list members should not send those messages? Or something like

I didn't send messages with swears, and I didn't send strong messages
against other list members, but yes, a list member sent that kind of
messages for me just because he didn't like my opinion.

You said that I sound like a broken record just because I told my
opinion for more times about the Skype version I like and the one that
I don't like. But what about the other people that expressed their
opinion but their opinion was different? They don't sound like a broken
record only because their opinion matches yours, or why they are OK but
I am not?


----- Original Message -----

From: [1]Sarah k Alawami

To: [2]skypeenglish@groups.io

Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 7:09 PM

Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0
| Skype Blogs

Then sit down, write your feedback to skype directly and not here. We
have already heard it. If you you don't like it there is always zoom or
the delete key. You tend to sound like a broken record and we are
starting to not like it. You in this case and on this list are the
minority as you are I hink the only one who is hating skype and its new
ways. Either get used to it, get left behind, or leave. I'm speaking as
a list member, not a mod.

Take care

On 19 Nov 2018, at 22:10, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Yes you are right. We are a minority and we will always be
disadvantaged because of this. This is what I am saying. But this
doesn't mean that we shouldn't say this just because we can't change
Nothing will be changed in our favour if we all would continue to
pretend that it is all right when it is not all right for all of us.


----- Original Message -----

From: [3]Shaun Oliver

To: [4]skypeenglish@groups.io

Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 1:07 AM

Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0
| Skype Blogs

that's not my point at all. in fact, you know what? forget it.

I'm done. Time and Time again, people have given you solutions and
whatnot and other feedback to help you improve your efficiency with
Skype, and you still complain that it is worse than what you had.
build a bridge, get over it, The new Skype is here to stay, and no
amount of belly aching on your part nor anybody else's will extend
the life of Skype Classic. Microsoft have put it to bed, and rightly
so. We, whether you like to admit it or not, are a minority, and we
do not affect a major corperation's bottom line as much as we'd all
wish we could, save for those to whom products are specifically
designed and marketed towards us.

Whenever I see an email from you regarding Skype, it is a never
ending litany of charges against it's ease of use, that it's worse
than what you had, it's less accessible, it's less efficient, it's
this, it's that, or it's the other.

That is why I say you should expend that energy you put in to
thinking up and cmposing that litany of charges, in to learning
Skype or whatever varients thereof, and actually be constructive and
positive, instead of negative and disruptive.

We've heard every single complaint you've raised before, and
reitterating them here, is not going to change what currently is. If
you feel that strongly about it, contact the MS Disability Access
Desk and kindly present them with your arguments.


On 20/11/2018 07:42, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

"Octavien, if you put as much energy in to learning the new skype as
you do complaining about it, you'd have nothing to complain about.".

I already told you that this is not true. I put a lot of efforts in
learning to use Windows 7, and I use it every day in the last years,
but I still consider it worse and less accessible than Windows XP.

After I will learn to use Skype 8 I will be able to use it very well,
but that "very well" would still be worse than using Skype 7 for me.

Don't think that all the people use the applications the same way you
use them.


----- Original Message -----

From: [5]Shaun Oliver

To: [6]skypeenglish@groups.io

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 10:34 PM

Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0
| Skype Blogs

so do I, on both platforms, windows and mac. IOS and android, well,
that's a whole other ballgame, but, it's certainly better than it
ever was.

Octavien, if you put as much energy in to learning the new skype as
you do complaining about it, you'd have nothing to complain about.

On 20/11/2018 05:54, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I don't mind the web inerface, in fact, I find myself navigating a lot
faster in the web interface than the older interface but thats just me.

On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:49, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Any improvement is good, but these are small improvements while bigger
issues will never be solved.

The biggest issue: Skype 8 uses a web interface.
This issue might be worked around if the scripts will turn the virtual
buffer off automaticly and it will use only the PC cursor, and of
course, if this way Skype will be fully accessible this way.

The best news is that for the moment Skype 7 still works. Too bad that
it will probably stop working soon.


----- Original Message -----

From: [7]John Holcomb II

To: [8]skypeenglish@groups.io

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 7:29 PM

Subject: [skypeenglish] New accessibility improvements in Skype 8.0 |
Skype Blogs



1. mailto:marrie12@...
2. mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io
3. mailto:blindman75@...
4. mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io
5. mailto:blindman75@...
6. mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io
7. mailto:jhii926@...
8. mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io
9. https://blogs.skype.com/news/2018/10/31/new-accessibility-improvements-in-skype-8-0/?utm_content=79383788&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
10. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/message/3549
11. mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io?subject=Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
12. mailto:orasnita@...?subject=Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bskypeenglish%5D%20New%20accessibility%20improvements%20in%20Skype%208.0%20%7C%20Skype%20Blogs
13. https://groups.io/mt/28243551/409874
14. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/post
15. http://www.dlee.org/skype/
16. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/editsub/409874
17. mailto:skypeenglish+owner@groups.io
18. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/leave/defanged

Doug Lee dgl@... http://www.dlee.org
Level Access doug.lee@... http://www.LevelAccess.com
"The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do
what he wants done, and self-restraint enough to keep from meddling with
them while they do it."--Theodore Roosevelt

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