locked Re: Microsoft Backtracks, Classic Skype Lives to See Another Day - Thurrott.com

Shaun Oliver
 

maybe, but discounting one thing over another, is wrong in my book, I don't discount jaws, even though as a personal preference, I refuse to use it. that does not mean to say I am any less competent for using jaws as opposed to NVDA or whatever else might be out there.

at their core, their basic functionality is the same. and in reality, NVDA gives you a better overview from a sighted person's perspective as to what's on the screen and, from a developer stand point as to the structure and window layout of an application.


JAWS has only recently begun to do this, where as NVDA have been doing it for years. as has voiceover on the mac.


Yes it comes down to personal preference, and yes, quite a lot of things both from myself and octavien could have been worded much better, however, on the whole, complaining for complainign sake, be it about skype or the underlying OS or the trials and tribulations in the operation thereof.

On 10/08/2018 08:35, Doug Lee wrote:
I honestly don't see, in Octavian's post, anything I could reasonably describe as:

- "Disrespect towards a screenreader based on personal preference." The "JAWS, not NVDA" remark read, to me, as simply a statement of practicality. Rewritten, I would put it, "I would likely get used to it if it were quicker to
use with JAWS. (I'm not an NVDA user, so the NVDA efficiency in this app won't affect me much.)"

- "Disparaging remarks and commentary." The above remark is the only one that I could make seem so, and only after your response made me look twice.

- "Shooting down someone else's viewpoint." Frankly I would say you're doing more "shooting" than anyone at the moment. I can read, "utterly, incontrovertibly wrong," thus. :-)

You refer to a Blinux community history that is 15 years old. Many on this list were probably not around for that, due to age or happenstance; my case surely being the latter. :-) That history probably gives you a view of the
poster you're aiming at here, but that view is not shared, at least by the same cause, by many others here unless I miss my mark.

The advice for users to know their screen readers is of course wise. Personal preferences aside, I prove that Skype 8 is usable by the fact that I've used nothing else for months. I do disable the virtual cursor in
JAWS, Browse mode in NVDA, most of the time though; so I question the view that web navigation is the best approach for Skype 8 and other similar Electron apps. But it is *a* means of managing much of the app, for those who
wish to do it that way.

Finally, I humbly suggest that the best response to the widely varying degree of screen reader familiarity out there is education more than vituperation. You are right that some resist change, new learning, etc. - in all
communities and not just ours - but that is, really, a subject outside the scope of a Skype-specific mailing list.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 08:08:21AM +0930, Shaun Oliver wrote:
wrong.

utterly, incontrovertibly wrong.

Read what sarah just said. and really I'm tired of seeing disrespect
towards a screenreader based on personal preference. that bullshit died
years ago quite frankly you were a voice of discord and discontent
among the blinux community about 15 years ago and you have yet to
change.

and yes that was a direct slight against an individual. but it was and
is also the truth, and I will speak only the truth. now, back to my
original point.

in both JAWS and NVDA, you have quicknav keys for navigating a web
page. if you are familiar with using these keystrokes, you can just
about navigate any web site, or, any web interface. Skype 8, included.

Kindly cease and desist with the disparaging remarks and commentary
because that does nobody any good other than to brass people off and
set them against you, even if you are attempting to argue what might be
to you, a valid point. shooting down someone else's view point, or
preference for screenreader, moreover, shooting down the efforts of two
people whose motis operandi is, was, to provide a product comparable to
what used to be known as the big three, is the hight of disrespect and
is utterly gauche, in my book.

Learn it, don't learn it. it's of no consequense to me, but don't sit
here and cry about it just because you can. it does nobody any favors.

On 10/08/2018 05:28, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

I think the easiness of usage of different versions of a program can be
partially measured by the number of keystrokes and hotkeys needed to do
a certain thing.



If the number of keypresses/hotkeys is for example double, it means
that the new version is twice as hard to use and consumes more time and
brain.



I don't know what's the situation of Skype 8 from this point of view.

If it requires fewer hotkeys *with JAWS*, not NVDA, then yes, I think I
might got used to it and consider it better after a time of using it.



The ideal application is the one that doesn't need to be used at all.
:)



--Octavian

----- Original Message -----

From: [1]Sarah k Alawami

To: [2]skypeenglish@groups.io

Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 10:12 PM

Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] Microsoft Backtracks, Classic Skype Lives
to See Another Day - Thurrott.com

Wow, 2 hours? I downloaded skype 8 and learned on a youtube stream how
to use it in a matter of minutes.. It is jut like a web page and if you
use your quick nav keys un nvda or jaws ou will be able to get around
the interface lightning fast. They work well.

On 9 Aug 2018, at 11:25, Josephine Hirsch wrote:

The thing about Skype 8 is that I do not like it because it took me 2
hours to use it. I like Skype 7 because I have Windows 7 OS and no
offense, Windows 10 is hard to use, plus, the commands for Windows 10
is way different than Windows 7. I am glad that someone have put their
foot down by telling MS that they can't DC Skype 7 because people are
used to it.
On 8/9/2018 12:53 PM, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

"Actualy skype 8 for windows is equally as good I learned it in about
maybe 5 minutes of just tinkering around.".

Oh yeah, but this is because you are great! Not all the people are the
same and not all of them use the computer for the same things. :-)

I used Windows 7 for years, but I still hate it and consider it less
accessible than Windows XP.
Even now after so many years, it is still very bad accessible with some
applications like TextPad, or MS DOS command prompt when comparing it
with the same apps and screen reader under Windows XP.

You said that you use NVDA. This means that probably you like it. I
don't. Actually I don't like the object navigation. I was sighted and I
want to have an experience as close as possible with the one offered to
the sighted that can have a visual perspective of the entire screen
without analysing each object and sub-object one by one. Maybe with the
style of NVDA Skype 8 is OK.

Window Eyes was a great screen reader many years ago, however for the
single reason that it enforced the users to use the horrible numpad, I
refused to use it. This was enough. Because I don't like to use numpad
at all for other things just typing digits. For other people this might
not be important at all.

However, Windows 7 has some stability improvements, so there aren't
just disadvantages.
But in Skype 8 I haven't heard about any advantage yet.

This is why I said that Skype 8 is worse for me. It may be as good as
Skype 7 for you or others, or maybe even better, but this doesn't make
it better for me.

Our different opinions don't mean contradiction, but are based on our
different needs and preferences.

For me "learning" means a different thing than for you for sure.
For me, learning means muscle learning, so I don't even need to think
how to use it.
If you ask me how I start chatting with somebody on Skype, I'll need to
stay a little and think all the steps one by one, and I may not be able
to tell you all the steps without doing it. But when I really want to
start chatting with somebody, I know that I need to press Insert+F11 to
open the list of apps in System tray, and from that point on is just
muscle memory, and I don't remember all the steps, but I do it very
fast, without needing to hear too much from the screen reader. It is
like the muscle memory needed to type a text very fast, without
thinking to every letter that you need to type.
And well, unfortunately I'm not so good and I can't change my way of
working and re-learning all the hotkey combinations to do what I want
as fast as before just in 5 minutes.
--Octavian

----- Original Message -----

From: [3]Sarah k Alawami

To: [4]skypeenglish@groups.io

Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 8:17 PM

Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] Microsoft Backtracks, Classic Skype Lives
to See Another Day - Thurrott.com

Actualy skype 8 for windows is equally as good I learned it in about
maybe 5 minutes of just tinkering around. I use it every day on my
youtube streams. If you don't believe me go to my youtube page. I can
get around it farily quickly with nvda.

On 7 Aug 2018, at 13:27, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

"just takes geting used to".

Yes, but this, and the fact that it doesn't have some features that
Skype 7 has, makes it worse than Skype 7. :)
Getting used to something means effort and time consumed, and Skype 7
doesn't require this.
It is good to consume time to learn something new that helps, but for
the moment I've seen only missing features in Skype 8, not new helpful
things that we can do with it.
It would be great for example if it will have an API that can be used
for sending chat messages from programs.

I see you compare Skype 8 with the version for Mac, but most Skype
users use it under Windows and they will probably never intend to use
Mac, so for them is not helpful at all if Skype 8 is similar with the
one for Mac, or if the Mac style of using the computer is more friendly
with Skype 8, or anything Mac related.

The truth is that Skype 8 is much worse accessible than Skype 7 when it
is used under Windows with JAWS, and I guess that this is the most used
combination.

I don't know how easy is to use it with Windows 10 yet, but from what I
read from other blind Windows 10 users, Windows 10 is not stable yet,
and some updates can damage some things until the next update, so this
is also not very useful.

--Octavian

----- Original Message -----

From: [5]Sarah k Alawami

To: [6]skypeenglish@groups.io

Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 8:39 PM

Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] Microsoft Backtracks, Classic Skype Lives
to See Another Day - Thurrott.com

Not true. I use it every day for my streams and my jobs. It is 100
percent accessible and usable and just takes geting used to, so give it
a chance.

On 6 Aug 2018, at 20:34, Josephine Hirsch wrote:

new version of Skype really sucks, and is hard to use with
screenreaders regardless if you have any type of impairment
On 8/6/2018 10:09 PM, Kimmie wrote:

Yeah I definitely put my feedback in there and told them to get their
act together.


From: [7]skypeenglish@groups.io [[8]mailto:skypeenglish@groups.io] On
Behalf Of Jerry Pryde
Sent: Tuesday, 7 August 2018 8:33 a.m.
To: [9]skypeenglish@groups.io
Subject: Re: [skypeenglish] Microsoft Backtracks, Classic Skype Lives
to See Another Day - Thurrott.com


This is really good news.

It sounds like they've gotten some seriously negative feedback on the
new version.

I've even heard from people with sight that don't like it.

Long Live Skype Classic.




From: [10]John Holcomb II

Sent: Monday, August 06, 2018 2:00 PM

To: [11]skypeenglish@groups.io

Subject: [skypeenglish] Microsoft Backtracks, Classic Skype Lives to
See Another Day - Thurrott.com


[12]https://www.thurrott.com/cloud/microsoft-consumer-services/skype/16
5295/microsoft-backtracks-classic-skype-lives-see-another-day


[13][LINK]

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12. https://www.thurrott.com/cloud/microsoft-consumer-services/skype/165295/microsoft-backtracks-classic-skype-lives-see-another-day
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15. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/message/2953
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18. https://groups.io/mt/24211481/409874
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20. http://www.dlee.org/skype/
21. https://groups.io/g/skypeenglish/editsub/409874
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